Every Christian has a "bottom line" to ordinances they will obey...what's your bottom line?
Submit Yourselves to Every Ordinance of Man...The Biblical View
Dr. Chuck Baldwin & Dr. Greg Dixon: 02/07/2006
Ecclesiastes 5:8; Psalm 149; Romans 13; 1 Peter 2; 1 Timothy 2; 1 Samuel 15
Running time: 00:28:20
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Open All Scripture Text Examined in This Interview: Ecclesiastes 5:8; Psalm 149; Romans 13; 1 Peter 2; 1 Timothy 2; 1 Samuel 15
Dr. Greg Dixon was the pastor of the famed Indianapolis Baptist Temple in Indianapolis, Indiana, for over 40 years. Dr. Baldwin interviewed Dr. Dixon on Wednesday, February 27, 2006 in the Chuck Baldwin Live studio in Pensacola, Florida, about the true teaching of Romans chapter 13. Many pastors and Christians use Romans 13 to justify total, unconditional submission to governing authorities, but is this what the Bible teaches? This is a very interesting and informative discussion by two notable American pastors.
The entire interview runs for a little over 28 minutes.
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7 comments:
The founding fathers were nothing near what these men are trying to illustrate them as. If anything, they were libertines.
The big flaw I hear in this explanation is their annotation of "every soul", they are assuming that when Paul says "Let every soul" he is talking about all mankind. Paul is clearly talking to Christians, not all creation. He wrote to the Roman church, not to Rome. So that destroys their argument that even the ruling authorities are subject.
All the apostolic writers are clear about how Christians should act in society. I believe they wanted to make sure Christians did not lose sight of what is actually important.
1 Timothy 6 says:
"Let all who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brothers; rather they must serve all the better since those who benefit by their good service are believers and beloved."
So, slaves continue to be slaves. It isn't any clearer than that.
Why is Paul saying this? He is saying this because men who were coming to knowledge believed that they didn't have to serve any man. Paul reminds them that they are to remain a slave, and do it in good standing so that they could give a testimony of there salvation in Christ. So it is obvious that the Christian is not to go around rebuking systems, rather, they should be preaching the good news of salvation in Christ. Being a slave does not stop this virtue from shining forth.
Also, can any man point to any government that can be an example of good government? There has never been a good government. So lets illustrate this now.
All government is bad..this is clear in nature, and it is a violation of what is right, but it is something we deal with because of the fall, just like slavery.
Paul is giving instruction to the Christian to honor the government in society so that others can witness that they have knowledge. Let the world go to war, not the Christian.
Also, when the time comes to not submit to a law of theirs, we are to still uphold their other laws while we lovingly voice concern. This is the call to the Christian.
I agree, accept I believe you are talking about something other than what is being discussed in this interview.
"All government is bad..this is clear in nature, and it is a violation of what is right, but it is something we deal with because of the fall, just like slavery.
I agree with this too, but the question is, how do we deal with it? We do it by seeking first the Kingdom of God. As you say, "preaching the good news of salvation in Christ" However, this is only possible in the context of the authority of Jesus Christ, as discussed in this interview. Just because a Christian might be a slave, preaching the Gospel by the authority of Christ over any government, does not make a bad, unsubmissive and rebelious Christian. It displays a Christian who is operating under the authority of Jesus Christ first; that Christian, therefore, is seeking first the Kingdom of God while he testifies.
And, a testimony to my master that Jesus is Lord is a "rebuke of systems" as you say. Does this make it wrong? I don't see how it can. Every single martyr has and always will be a rebuker of systems that are opposed to God in the context that I am talking about, and in the context of this interview.
I forgot to address your opening comment, "The big flaw I hear in this explanation is their annotation of "every soul""
I like how you contextualized that, because I had a problem with this part of the interview too. However, it was a very small part of their argument.
The main point they are trying to prove from scripture is that a doctrine which says we are to "submit" to any authority of man no matter what, or, other than to not preach the Gospel, is not a Biblical or historical doctrine.
This point I think they made very clear and have done a good job of proving this in just 28 minutes.
Castleman said...
"So that destroys their argument that even the ruling authorities are subject."
Can you site one argument from Scripture that tries to convince us that ruling authorities are not subject to the authority of God?
I do believe that ruling authorities are subject to God. I do not believe that it happens often that a ruler actually is elect and tries to honor God, but yes, they are under the authority of God, but we must remember, we are all being judged by God in all things we do. This alone should give us insight to the impossibility of a good ruler, since there is no good man.
I don't understand your argument. In effect you are saying, since we can't be perfect, why bother. The Bible does not teach that at all.
...except, of course, when it comes to justification and salvation, but I'm sure you know I know that.
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